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#75952 - 02/16/17 08:11 PM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Brit]
Bogus_bill Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 3865
Loc: SMA Mexico
Quote:
I find it most troubling that we actually have whole cities in this country that are harboring these fugitives and "shielding" them. I thought that such actions were a crime.


There are bad laws. You might argue that they are the law but I am going to disagree. If people have been a part of this country, working, earning, paying taxes, going to school and have been absorbed into the fabric of this country, deporting them is wrong. Cities that recognize this should be applauded for their stand.

I strongly feel that those who see only the law and not the results of those laws are just not getting it. Laws have to be just or be amended. The process to amend those laws start with good citizens and, in this case, whole cities taking a stand. Then, maybe, congress will write and pass a fair and comprehensive immigration plan. In the past. both Democrats and Republicans have tried to but pressure from folks like yourself kept it from passing.

It is a broken record..they broke the law, they broke the law. They are here, have been here for generations, hiding in plain sight. They are part of us. Tighten up the border but those that have been here for a long time need some different considerations. You just cannot deport that many people.

When, for a generation, we ignore our own laws and not enforce these laws a generation is born or, perhaps, just raised here that is innocent.
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#75953 - 02/16/17 08:34 PM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Brit]
Bogus_bill Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 3865
Loc: SMA Mexico
I need to also add that, as a resident here in Mexico for 7 years, I meet with great frequency people who have been deported. They knew they did wrong crossing the border but the life we have in the USA is a big draw. None that I have met went up there to steal. They went to work and work hard, usually for less than minimum wages.

They were denied but they understand that they broke the law. I don't disagree that those people should not be deported. My disagreement is solely for those that have been there for an extended time.

Think of N. Korea and S. Korea. Those countries should be one or, at least, have free movement between them. Our border has separated families as surely as those borders of N. Korea. A comprehensive immigration plan would allow visits. Right now a resident of Mexico has about a zero percent chance of a visa to visit a relative.

When I moved here, I had a permit to visit but not to work. Those permits to work were totally different processes. How hard is it to copy something like that?
_________________________
I'm kind of a gossip hound, but watching the media whip the small fires into giant forest fires so that they can cover the result is infuriating.

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#75956 - 02/17/17 04:08 AM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Bogus_bill]
Brit Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 1345
"I strongly feel that those who see only the law and not the results of those laws are just not getting it. Laws have to be just or be amended."

Are you suggesting our law that does not allow persons to cross our borders and to enter into our country without proper authorization is unjust? If so, what is unjust about it? Don't you think we have the right to review and approve or disapprove those who desire to come into our country?

Are you saying that just because some of those who crossed our borders without legal permission who have been in this country for several years should be rewarded (citizenship, amnesty or whatever) for doing so, and should not be prosecuted for doing so?
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"Both politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason!"
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#75957 - 02/17/17 11:49 PM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Brit]
Bogus_bill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 3865
Loc: SMA Mexico
Quote:
Are you suggesting our law that does not allow persons to cross our borders and to enter into our country without proper authorization is unjust? If so, what is unjust about it? Don't you think we have the right to review and approve or disapprove those who desire to come into our country?


I thought I was clear about this. If a Mexican crosses the border illegally he should be deported. If a Mexican family has been here many years, established a household, is a part of the workforce and pays taxes, there should be some consideration for them. You can wiggle around the issue and say the law is the law but these families probably have offspring born here, relatives that are legal and deporting them is just wrong. The path to citizenship needs to account for humanitarian issues within our own borders.

We absolutely need the right to approve or disapprove who comes in our country. But, after a great while, for those illegals who having been living within our borders, we need to moderate our law. There have been attempts by both parties to put together such changes in some sort of a comprehensive immigration law, paths to citizenship. People from both parties have pressured their congressmen to not do so. They see no humanitarian issue in this. The law is the law, etc. If you cannot see the wrong in that, there is not much I can say to you to give you the caring about your fellow man that many of us feel. The law is the law, you know...

Quote:
Are you saying that just because some of those who crossed our borders without legal permission who have been in this country for several years should be rewarded (citizenship, amnesty or whatever) for doing so, and should not be prosecuted for doing so?


The 'several years' part of this is not adequate. Established, part of the community, paying taxes and all I explained above. I wrote quite a bit back about a young girl who was 2 years old when she was brought into the USA. She is in her late 20's now. She graduated from AHS and has been working since she was 16. She is married to another illegal who similarly has been here most of his life. They have a cute daughter who is a US citizen. Her mother is a citizen now. She had no idea that she was not legal until about eight years ago. To sum it up, she had no active part in crossing the border, know no life except this life. Your 'the law is the law' would toss her family back into Mexico, a completely foreign existence. Again, if you a person who lacks compassion for your fellow man, the law is the law works for this case. This is no special case. There are many thousands just like her.

I have no idea of where she is with her pursuit of citizenship. Immigration attornies cost money. I know she was looking for an answer but it has been a few years since we talked. She is only an example to consider.


_________________________
I'm kind of a gossip hound, but watching the media whip the small fires into giant forest fires so that they can cover the result is infuriating.

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#75958 - 02/18/17 03:06 AM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Bogus_bill]
Brit Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 1345
"I thought I was clear about this. If a Mexican crosses the border illegally he should be deported."

On this we agree, although I would apply this to anyone crossing our border, including Mexicans.

"If a Mexican family has been here many years, established a household, is a part of the workforce and pays taxes, there should be some consideration for them."

Here's where you begin to lose me. I don't think you mean that it's okay for a family to illegally cross our border, or do you? I think you have some sort of timeline in mind after the illegal crossing during which this family somehow blends in wherever they end up and don't get caught right away. Is that what you are saying? What would that timeline be? How many years?

So you want the current law to be changed to what? Those who have alluded our enforcement authorities for a lengthy period of time should be given consideration? How about this? We'll just tell the world that anyone who enters our country without permission and doesn't get caught for doing so within, say 5 years, will get a free pass.
If that's not the change you're hoping for to avoid prosecution, what should be the minimum length of time between the illegal entry and getting caught for doing so, and what consideration do you have in mind in such situations?
_________________________
"Both politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason!"
Mark Twain

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#75960 - 02/18/17 07:14 PM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Brit]
Bogus_bill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 3865
Loc: SMA Mexico
Quote:
Here's where you begin to lose me. I don't think you mean that it's okay for a family to illegally cross our border, or do you? I think you have some sort of timeline in mind after the illegal crossing during which this family somehow blends in wherever they end up and don't get caught right away. Is that what you are saying?


No. Families in the past crossed the border, here known as La Frontera. They crossed to pick crops and lived in migrant camps. Books have been written about their experiences. They hid in plain sight because crops had to be picked. They assimilated into our society as they learned the language and found other employment, usually with fake SS cards. This has happened and will happen. At some point, they are fully part of our society. This is not conjecture. There are hundreds of thousands that fit this description.

Yes, I want the current law to be changed but only for existing families, not to encourage other new families. Those that try should be taken back to Mexico. Good enforcement is a must. Enforcement in the past was much more sporadic. If you want secure borders, constant enforcement, enforcement that was not always there, has to be the norm. If not, you have given tacit permission for illegal immigration.

Today, it is a lot harder to cross La Frontera. Our border patrols and our fences are much more secure than a few strands of barbed wire. In the past, the movement to and from Mexico was much simpler.

I gave an example of a Grays Harbor family that should have explained what I was talking about. Would you throw them back into Mexico? That should be the answer to your question.
_________________________
I'm kind of a gossip hound, but watching the media whip the small fires into giant forest fires so that they can cover the result is infuriating.

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#75961 - 02/19/17 05:50 PM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Bogus_bill]
Bogus_bill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 3865
Loc: SMA Mexico


Edited by Bogus_bill (02/19/17 05:53 PM)
_________________________
I'm kind of a gossip hound, but watching the media whip the small fires into giant forest fires so that they can cover the result is infuriating.

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#75962 - 02/19/17 11:09 PM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Bogus_bill]
Brit Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 1345
"Yes, I want the current law to be changed but only for existing families, not to encourage other new families. Those that try should be taken back to Mexico. Good enforcement is a must. Enforcement in the past was much more sporadic. If you want secure borders, constant enforcement, enforcement that was not always there, has to be the norm. If not, you have given tacit permission for illegal immigration.
I gave an example of a Grays Harbor family that should have explained what I was talking about. Would you throw them back into Mexico? That should be the answer to your question."


I'd like a much more specific answer to my question to include the amount of time you're taking into account between the illegal crossing and the discovery of that action by federal authorities...and what consideration should our government give them in such a circumstance.

Now to begin to answer your question: You seem to have a dog in this fight, perhaps because you now reside in Mexico a good part of each year. Well, I have a dog in this fight, too. My wife is an immigrant. She went through the somewhat difficult process of all the required paperwork, the background checks from her own country, the physical examinations and personal references that took quite a lot of time and effort. That is the required, legal process that millions of other applicants go through each year to immigrate to our country. That choice resulted in breaking up her family, just like most other immigrants. Her mother, her siblings, her grandparents, her aunts and uncles and her cousins remained. Thus, the breaking up of families is a natural consequence of going (legally or illegally) to another country to live. It is a choice that is made by those who leave their native country, but that choice has much more severe possible consequences if that move is not made in a legal manor.

Those persons who, for whatever reasons, decide not to go through the legal process to enter our country, but that go ahead and choose to do so illegally, begin their new lives built on a huge lie, and living that lie requires continuing to lie each and every day of their lives. In that respect I do feel sorry for them. They made a very bad choice to break our laws and they are living with the knowledge of what could happen to them if/when what they have done is discovered.

I don't know many persons of Mexican descent, but those I do know that have been willing to discuss this issue all had a common response to the illegal entry by other Mexicans. They were disgusted and felt their heritage is being called into question by being given a bad name by those who chose to enter illegally. They further resented this because of the difficult process they had to go through to immigrate here legally. In short, they were embarrassed.

As to your personal example, and as to whether or not "I would throw them back into Mexico?" I will give you my response to that once I have read your reply to my question regarding more specifics.
_________________________
"Both politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason!"
Mark Twain

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#75964 - 02/20/17 07:29 AM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Brit]
Bogus_bill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 3865
Loc: SMA Mexico
I am not writing laws for immigration. I told you the story of this one young woman who thought she was an American until she found out she was not. If that is not enough for you to make a decision, no decision will be made by you. You are looking for arguing points and I am arguing compassion.

I live here in Mexico 10 months out of the year but I mostly interact with others like myself, English-speaking gringos. I do meet Mexicans who have been deported and I am good with that fact. They crossed, they got caught, they were returned.

The Mexicans I know in the USA are basically the ones I described. I reached out to one of them via the Internet and asked her if she has gotten her permit to live there legally. I just received her answer today. She is scared to death because she has no bank account to help her get a start here if she was deported. She has spent it all on an immigration lawyer. She has hopes but lives in fear. What a feeling that has to be.

I won't be listing times within the country and all the other variables you might request. My interest is purely humanitarian. You want black and white. If my example doesn't work, the heck with it. Your answer is not that important to me.
_________________________
I'm kind of a gossip hound, but watching the media whip the small fires into giant forest fires so that they can cover the result is infuriating.

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#75965 - 02/20/17 09:10 AM Re: Things happening south of the border [Re: Bogus_bill]
Brit Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 1345
Sorry you're not interested in my answer, so I won't bother you further with this. Perhaps others will step in and provide their input.
_________________________
"Both politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason!"
Mark Twain

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